[00:00:00] Dana Ziemniak: And what they don't understand is that every time you're doing that, you're blocking the flow of oxygen to your brain. Brain cells do not regenerate and come back. And you always run the risk of you know, passing out, hitting your head, ending up with a concussion.
[00:00:15] Dori Durbin: It's often said that losing a child is the worst tragedy in a parent's life. And I totally believe that. But what happens when the tragedy is something that you didn't even know your child knew about or was at risk for? In this episode, we deal with real and raw feelings about the choking game. And yes, an actual death.
It was an honor and privileged to be able to interview Dana Zaniac. She's a stay-at-home mom and the author of blue is the color of heaven. The story of a boy's love strength and beyond.
I talked to her about her experience with her son and the choking game. I truly hope you'll listen to this podcast to learn about how to protect your kids. And even to ask some [00:01:00] questions that maybe you hadn't thought about asking before and help them understand where they are as people today.
[00:01:08] Dori Durbin: Hi, Dana. So this is a really tough subject and I appreciate your being able to talk about it. I think maybe the easiest way for our listeners to prepare themselves is to start off and just talk a little bit about what you wish you would've known before this incident actually happened.
[00:01:28] Dana Ziemniak: Yes I wish that I would have known about the choking game, which is what my son did while we lost him.
[00:01:38] Dana Ziemniak: I wished I would have known that other children were talking about this and doing this, and we thought we were being ahead of the game by not allowing him to have a phone, not allowing him to have social media. And things like that and monitoring his interactions on his laptop and his iPad. But what we didn't [00:02:00] know is that other kids have these things and they were bringing them to school and talking about it and showing kids at school.
[00:02:09] Dana Ziemniak: And I was unable to warn him about something that I did not know. So I wish I would have known about what was going on with the social media challenges.
[00:02:22] Dori Durbin: And this happened, it was seven years ago,
[00:02:24] Dana Ziemniak: correct? Seven and a half. It was March 23rd, 2016.
[00:02:30] Dori Durbin: Okay. So, some of the social dares that were going on at that time, the choking game, maybe, maybe you could explain what that is in case people don't know what that was.
[00:02:40] Dana Ziemniak: Sure. It's been around for many, many years. It's been played different ways, called different names, the choking game, the pass out game blackout. Basically what they do is they block the flow of oxygen to the brain, whether they use their hands, [00:03:00] pushing on your chest, using a ligature, like a rope or a belt, and what that does is.
[00:03:07] Dana Ziemniak: Basically, when they let go, it causes a euphoria kind of a reaction, like a head rush and I think the kids like it because it's. Risky, , the kids do these risk things. And what they don't understand is that every time you're doing that, you're blocking the flow of oxygen to your brain.
[00:03:26] Dana Ziemniak: You're losing brain cells. You're killing brain cells. Brain cells do not regenerate and come back. And you always run the risk of you know, passing out, hitting your head, ending up with a concussion. And they used to play it in groups. Then they started doing it by themselves, and that's where it gets very dangerous because if you're alone and you pass out, there's no one there to remove the ligature.
[00:03:55] Dana Ziemniak: And so you pass out and don't wake up. And that's what [00:04:00] this is. And it's very scary. Very scary.
[00:04:04] Dori Durbin: I think it's also a factor in this as well was that Evan had ADHD. He had anxiety. He had high functioning autism. Yes, so go ahead and speak a little bit about that too.
[00:04:16] Dana Ziemniak: So with Evan. Because of the ADHD, he was always more impulsive and a risk taker. And then you factor in the autism and the anxiety he was being picked on, bullied, kids were less than kind to him.
[00:04:35] Dana Ziemniak: And so he wanted to fit in and, like I said, peer pressure is a real thing. You know, you don't want, you want to be accepted, you know, you don't want to go to school and get picked on and made fun of you want to be accepted. And so for a kid like Evan, it was even more of an issue because he was more likely to try these types of things to fit in [00:05:00] and so a kid dared him.
[00:05:03] Dana Ziemniak: And , he just being the impulsive kid that he was, I think he was supposed to try it with the boys down the street. They ended up not being home. So he thought, okay, I'll just go do it by myself. And then I'll get it over with report back to them. And then I will be accepted by, being alone and not understanding how it works.
[00:05:24] Dana Ziemniak: He passed out. You can pass out within seconds. , I don't think they realize how quickly it happens. So I feel like his diagnosis played into this made him more susceptible to it for sure.
[00:05:39] Dori Durbin: Well, again, thank you for talking about this. This can't be very easy.
[00:05:44] Dana Ziemniak: It took me years. I still do it sometimes, but it took me years to realize there was nothing I could have done to change that. I could have said, if only I knew, but I didn't know, how would I know about the choking game? How could I [00:06:00] have known? I'd never heard of it. And so I couldn't warn him about that. Could I have gone outside looking for him any faster? Well, yeah, but I was calling for him. You know what I mean? These things go through your mind and then you just get to a point where you're like, I can't keep doing that. I did the best I could. So, that's just how I have to look at it.
[00:06:27] Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah. We were talking a little bit before, too, about sometimes as parents, we have to make decisions that we feel like, man, that just made me the worst parent in the whole universe. And it ends up being a good decision later, but you were sharing a few things that way, too, that you already had to do.
[00:06:46] Dana Ziemniak: Yeah. With Evan, he had a lot of behavioral issues, I think because of the anxiety.
[00:06:51] Dana Ziemniak: And that's how it comes out in children is behavioral issues. And so, , there came a point in time where we had to send [00:07:00] him to a partial hospital program in the fifth grade. And it killed me because, here I am sending my son off to this partial hospital program. Now he didn't stay overnight. He went there during the day and they did a little schoolwork, but it was intensive therapy for the anxiety. And it ended up helping him by it tore me apart having to do it because I felt like his problems were my fault. Like maybe I was the bad parent, like I couldn't handle my child.
[00:07:31] Dana Ziemniak: And now here I am sending him off to this day program and pulling him out of school to send him to this, but in the long run, it was good for him, it was, but there's a lot of things I look back on, like. Fighting with him to do homework. Well, they have to do their homework. And I know it was a good thing that we made him do it, and he got good grades, but then I look back too, and I'm like gosh, if I would have known then what I know now, I [00:08:00] wouldn't have focused so much on the homework. So of course as parents we make decisions that we feel might be harsh, but in the long run it helps them.
[00:08:09] Dori Durbin: Yeah. So definitely, I think there's a resiliency that comes out of them fighting through some of those hard. Yeah. And unfortunately, I think for us too, because we want to protect them with every ounce of our being. Exactly. You can't, we're just not capable of protecting them.
[00:08:27] Dana Ziemniak: No, no, no, we're not.
[00:08:30] Dori Durbin: It's these conversations that hopefully. You have along the way, if you know that you need to have
[00:08:36] Dori Durbin: them, that's the right.
[00:08:38] Dana Ziemniak: Yes, right. You can't protect them from something you don't know about.
[00:08:43] Dana Ziemniak: And so that's my thing I like to spread awareness. So that parents are aware that they can have these conversations with their children. And explain to them why this stuff is so dangerous . I think that's what you have to do.
[00:08:59] Dori Durbin: [00:09:00] So Evan didn't have any instances where he talked about it. He wasn't like, Oh, they're playing this game. I'm going to go find out about it
[00:09:07] Dana Ziemniak: no, but , the one thing that I do recall Now, my husband UFC fighting and they have that chokehold. And, the kids see that and at one time, Evan was sort of like hyperventilating like on purpose , and I was like, What are you doing?
[00:09:25] Dana Ziemniak: And he's like, Oh, it feels good in my head when I do that. And I was like, Evan, why would you do that? That's making yourself dizzy. I said, I get dizzy on a regular basis. I have low blood pressure and I don't like how I feel when I stand up and I'm like, Oh, that head rush, but. I didn't know enough about it at the time I never would have put two and two together, and I don't think that was leading up to it, but I think if the kids were talking about this and holding their breath I think leads up to it, whether or not he was doing that because of the [00:10:00] choking game. I don't know.
[00:10:01] Dana Ziemniak: I'll never know, but I didn't know to have that conversation at the time. Other than Evan, why would you do that? That's, that's not good. Why would you want to feel that way?
[00:10:11] Dori Durbin: . It's a hard age too because he was middle school, right? Yeah, he was in sixth grade. Yeah.
[00:10:17] Dori Durbin: I used to teach middle school and I remember some of the antics of middle schoolers and everything from, seeing how far they could shove pencils up their noses. to, disjointing their fingers to being flexible. It's like this grand experiment for boys at that age, especially. And so, they do, unfortunately, do weird things and it's just like they're I don't know. It's like the big kid in them coming out. Yes. So there's probably a certain point where you just kind of are like, well, it's another weird thing, but okay. It's not something that's going to register in your mind as being good.
[00:10:50] Dana Ziemniak: Right. Right. I mean, he never touched his throat. He wasn't pushing on his chest. He was just inhaling like really quick. And that's not [00:11:00] killing brain cells, right? Like it's not, he's just. Doing that but I didn't know, and later I did find out that kids were doing that as well, holding their breath and seeing how long they could hold their breath.
[00:11:13] Dana Ziemniak: And then it leads up to doing that. So things that you look at that you think are innocent, maybe not so much.
[00:11:20] Dori Durbin: Have you found out more things like that since you've been doing all this awareness?
[00:11:25] Dana Ziemniak: Yeah, I have I have found from other classmates , that videos were going around that kids were doing it.
[00:11:35] Dana Ziemniak: They didn't tell me at 1st, I think they were scared and so everybody. Was like, no, you don't know what he did. We've never heard of that. And I thought somebody has to know something. My son didn't come up with this on his own. And eventually, even just within this past year, I mean, I figured these kids are 19 going on 20. Now, they finally have started coming out and saying, you know what, I did that. [00:12:00] We did it. We were doing it.
[00:12:02] Dori Durbin: Okay. So he saw examples. He knew it was Part of the group to become among them, let's say. Yes.
[00:12:10] Dana Ziemniak: Yeah. Yeah. There were videos. Kids were still contacting me, you know, a year or two later saying there's videos going around. It was big on TikTok because back when Evan was around, it wasn't on there. TikTok wasn't a thing, or Instagram or any of that. It was YouTube. There were videos on YouTube. Now it's on TikTok, it's on Instagram. Kids are seeing it. On these social media platforms, and they're not realizing the danger.
[00:12:38] Dana Ziemniak: Kids are laughing, having fun. They don't realize. So, it's definitely out there but they were too afraid to tell me at the time. I knew people knew about it. They had to have. They just wouldn't tell me.
[00:12:52] Dana Ziemniak: It's gonna be so much guilt behind that, and I was okay. He wasn't. I should have been in the same spot like all of them.
[00:12:59] Dana Ziemniak: [00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it was hard because when he passed, he was only 12. And it's not like you can have these kinds of conversations with these kids, I think the parents asked them, are you sure you didn't know? Are you sure? No, I didn't know anything. And now they're older and they're coming out and saying it and part of me just says, I wish you could have just told me that from the beginning.
[00:13:23] Dana Ziemniak: Because I had to struggle to figure this out on my own, they could have just told me, it would have saved me so much more heartache, but again, can't go back, can't change anything no, all I can do is move forward with it. So I'm passing along my knowledge that I have now to others.
[00:13:43] Dori Durbin: Through your book. Yeah. Yeah. So blue is the color of heaven. I know that you, I heard somewhere that the title was something that you felt like Evan gave to you. Tell us about that.
[00:13:54] Dana Ziemniak: Yeah. So, and I realized some people don't believe in this stuff and, and I'll be honest [00:14:00] with you. I didn't believe in it either.
[00:14:02] Dana Ziemniak: Until. I had to like until I have experienced the things that I've experienced and that I cannot explain them. So Evan would send mediums to me. Like, I wouldn't seek them out. I would just be out and about and someone would come up to me and say. I'm a medium and your son is standing right beside you and then would go on and tell me things that there's no way they could know.
[00:14:27] Dana Ziemniak: So, 1 medium told me that Evan said blue is the color of heaven, that heaven is just a very pretty blue color. And so it stuck blue is the color of heaven and that's kind of where it came from.
[00:14:44] Dori Durbin: I love that your book, not only are you telling this story, but you're also tying in some of his ties afterwards, like the impact that he had post.
[00:14:54] Dori Durbin: Right. So do you want to talk a little bit about that? I think that's fascinating.
[00:14:59] Dana Ziemniak: Yeah, [00:15:00] I, I feel like Evan has pushed me along, he wanted me to write this book. He wanted me to get the word out and, and a lot of the kids. came to me afterwards and would tell me such wonderful stories about Evan.
[00:15:16] Dana Ziemniak: Things that I didn't even know. The way he has touched other people's lives and it's just amazing to me because this was my 12 year old little child. But he has made such a huge impact on so many people that it's just It blows my mind and he is doing more from the spiritual side than he did as this little boy here on earth.
[00:15:43] Dana Ziemniak: And so kids will tell me that, because of him. They are kinder to people because he would hold the door open for them and smile at them at school. Or even though these kids were mistreating him, he was kind to other people. He didn't [00:16:00] like to see other people suffer. So he would go out of his way to be nice and help them.
[00:16:05] Dana Ziemniak: And for them to come to me and tell me he changed them and the way they see things is amazing because now they're going to be. More compassionate, more kind, and there's going to be more adults like that out in this world. And so it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful legacy to leave behind, which is more than some adults can say for their behavior.
[00:16:28] Dana Ziemniak: And here's this little 12 year old boy who struggled and had, hardships in his life. And he was still able to leave that impression on me.
[00:16:37] Dori Durbin: Amazing. Okay, so tell us a little bit about your book. And I think you're going to read some of it for us as well.
[00:16:42] Dana Ziemniak: Yes. So blue is the color of heaven. The story of a boy's love, strength and beyond. It's the story of my son. It's Evan's story, story of his life and how, just the struggles that we went through, the good times, the bad times and everything in [00:17:00] between, and then to show that love never dies, love continues so I will read, this is the dedication of my book. This book is dedicated to my son and all the other beautiful children gone too soon. Always loved and never forgotten. Evan may have only been here for a short time, but he has made a huge impact and a lasting impression on others. He has taught me to be kinder and more compassionate and to never judge others.
[00:17:33] Dana Ziemniak: He has shown me that love never dies and our spirits live on over the years. He has continued to do wonderful things and help others. I am so very proud of him and I am forever blessed that he chose me to be his mother.
It's so sweet. I think, the fact that you're able to talk about this, the fact that you're Making an effort to make parents aware just to even [00:18:00] celebrate his life the way you are is such a gift. And it's a gift to him, but it's a gift to you as well.
[00:18:06] Dori Durbin: And to parents all over. That's awesome. Yeah. That's just so strong and amazing of you.
[00:18:13] Dana Ziemniak: It's the way I keep him alive and keep him going., it's the way I keep him present in my life. It's the way Everyday life. He's still here. He's still with us and I'm proud of him and I want to share him with the world.
[00:18:28] Dori Durbin: That's amazing. It really is. Well, so one thing that I wondered being in your situation where you have gone through this what advice would you give to parents? Who maybe are concerned about where their kids are behaving as far as social situations or maybe even their friends are, what advice would you give them now?
[00:18:51] Dana Ziemniak: Well, I would say you need to be aware of what your children are doing. You need to know what they're doing. You need to monitor [00:19:00] what they're doing. And that's how you're going to find out what they're doing. If you feel that there's something going on, trust your instincts, follow up on it, look into what they're doing.
[00:19:10] Dana Ziemniak: I monitor my daughter's phone and I told her I need to be able to get into your phone and check on it. And so. I do not every day, all the time, but I do go on there and I do check through her text messaging. I mean, she's 13. I trust her for the most part, but again, she's a child.
[00:19:30] Dana Ziemniak: She's a teenager. There are other influences. There's peer pressure, and so I look into all of that and. I make sure I know what she's doing who she's with knowing the parents of these kids. All of that's important, if you think there's something going on, talk to your child, have those conversations.
[00:19:49] Dana Ziemniak: It may not go over well at first, but if you continue to have those conversations, you continue to be open with your children. I think they will be open with you.
[00:19:58] Dori Durbin: Do you feel like there's a [00:20:00] certain age that parents need to start doing that? Or do you think it's just kind of from the ground up kind of thing?
[00:20:05] Dana Ziemniak: I think it's from day one, because kids are exposed to things younger and younger. For instance, the choking game used to be something that teenagers played high schoolers, and now it's down into the elementary schools. So the youngest person that I'm aware of that passed from this was eight years old.
[00:20:24] Dana Ziemniak: That's 2nd, 3rd grade, they know about it. So I think if you talk to them from day 1 and you have open conversations, explaining to them, don't just say, you can't do this, or I'm not gonna let you do that. Explain why, and I think you'll, it'll be easier to talk to them and keep keep an open.
[00:20:43] Dana Ziemniak: Dialogue and it's hard because his parents. You want to say things, do things, but then you got to stop yourself and say, I want them to trust me. So maybe I rewarded a little,
[00:20:55] Dori Durbin: I remember if there was something that came on in the media, we don't follow the media super [00:21:00] carefully, but it was something where I could have a conversation and say, Oh, what did you hear about?
[00:21:04] Dori Durbin: X, Y, Z, what do you think about that? Take it from
[00:21:08] Dori Durbin: there, but there's not always that situation that affords that either,
[00:21:12] Dana Ziemniak: you can jump into it. Yeah. And also too, I think, and what I have found is that if you say something to them over and over again, It's going to eventually sink in,
[00:21:24] Dana Ziemniak: just like with behavior I can remember things even from Evan and from Ava. And you would just say over and over again, well, that's not really appropriate or I don't appreciate that. Or we need to do this they're listening, they're going to act like they're not, but they're taking it in.
[00:21:41] Dana Ziemniak: And so eventually it will come out and you'll say, There it is.
[00:21:46] Dana Ziemniak: So, they're little sponges. They take it in.
[00:21:49] Dori Durbin: Your words aren't making any impact. Yes. Whether they show it or
[00:21:52] Dana Ziemniak: not. Exactly. Exactly. And someday it will come out and, they're taking it in. They're not going to tell you that they're [00:22:00] thinking about it.
[00:22:01] Dana Ziemniak: They are.
[00:22:03] Dori Durbin: That makes sense. Well, tell us for your book, where can people find it and where can they learn more about just you and what you're
[00:22:10] Dana Ziemniak: doing? Okay. The book is available online through Amazon, and it's also available online through Barnes and Nobles, not in the store, but online. And so that's where it is.
[00:22:23] Dana Ziemniak: I don't really have. My own little following, or I'm not tech savvy,
[00:22:29] Dori Durbin: not yet,
[00:22:32] Dana Ziemniak: I'm not very tech savvy. So when it comes to. Things like that. I'm not good at that. But people can find me on Facebook. People have. I've actually had people from other countries contact me and say, Hey, I read your book and, it's been amazing.
[00:22:48] Dana Ziemniak: So they can find me. And also, as part of, This whole process, I was invited to be on Dr. Phil. Oh, wow. Yes. So they were doing a [00:23:00] segment on the Pass Out Challenges and they had another, family on there who had recently lost their son and they invited us to come on the show.
[00:23:11] Dana Ziemniak: So. We did, we went. And so we were able to get the word out even more and it aired in January.
[00:23:19] Dori Durbin: Are you doing presentations anywhere else like that?
[00:23:22] Dana Ziemniak: I've been on a couple podcasts. I've been asked to be on a couple of things like that. And then I have someone who wanted me to speak at a brief. Type of thing. And so I think I'm going to do that in the spring.
[00:23:36] Dana Ziemniak: I wouldn't mind doing stuff like that. Actually, I would like to do it. And also things that I've done, I used to go and set up booths at like the mall. And then I would talk to people as they would come through. That was kind of before my book was out. But things like that. I get to speak like at my daughter's school or anything like that, , I'll do, I'm sure if I had a website or [00:24:00] something, I would do it more, but
[00:24:04] Dori Durbin: somebody out there is listening. Who loves to make really see you talking to teacher groups and to parent groups. And yeah, I do think that this kind of thing, having that
[00:24:19] Dana Ziemniak: information out there is just fabulous. The thing of it is, too, though, that I find to be so frustrating is, there are other parents out there that want to talk about this, but most schools won't let you.
[00:24:34] Dana Ziemniak: Evans school would not, they didn't want me talking about it. They hit it basically. They denied, and so I think that's the problem is a lot of these schools don't even want to bring it up or parents don't want to bring it up or talk about it. That's the problem that there are, there are a lot of us, unfortunately, that have experienced this and want to share.
[00:24:56] Dana Ziemniak: What we know it's just a matter of finding people [00:25:00] that want to hear it or want to let you share it, , but you're right. I agree. I think a school is the best place to do it. Yeah, I
[00:25:08] Dori Durbin: think if you're talking to the teachers, that's different than the whole school, right?
[00:25:13] Dori Durbin: Just having the adults in the know of okay, if you see them hyperventilating and yes, there needs to be a conversation about that. It's not just. Somebody's sticking their heads in their
[00:25:22] Dana Ziemniak: nose. That should be a conversation too. I mean, that's bad too. That's bad. Or even just like sending out an email to parents and saying we want to make you aware of this, for more information, go here, go there. People need to know about it. So I'm trying my best. And there are other parents out there. There is a website, it's eric's cause.org and Eric is with a k. And Eric passed from the choking game at the age of 12. And his mom started Eric's Cause, and there's a lot of information out there for [00:26:00] parents telling you how to, talk to your kids about it.
[00:26:03] Dana Ziemniak: So there are a lot of resources out there, you just have to know to find them, ,
[00:26:09] Dori Durbin: well, they can come to you now too. They
[00:26:11] Dana Ziemniak: can, I'm, I'm always happy to share. You know, and, and talk about Evan and do anything I can, because , I can't help him, but to help others is honoring him.
[00:26:26] Dana Ziemniak: Absolutely. And I feel passionate about helping others and sharing the story.
[00:26:32] Dori Durbin: Well, we will include your Facebook connection and maybe do you have an email that you use?
[00:26:38] Dana Ziemniak: I just have an old hotmail account. I, I don't even.
[00:26:42] Dori Durbin: Well, whatever you're comfortable with. So people, because there is probably somebody who's listening right now, is concerned and really just needs an ear or needs advice.
[00:26:52] Dori Durbin: And having somebody who's gone through it is huge.
[00:26:56] Dana Ziemniak: Yeah. I mean, people can find me through Facebook. My page is [00:27:00] private, but, through messaging, I've had people find me and reach out. IT's it's amazing to hear from people. It really is, anything I can do offering my experiences, even with dealing with the school, and getting your child the services.
[00:27:17] Dana Ziemniak: That they should get, because that's difficult to for sure.
[00:27:24] Dori Durbin: Well, dana, again, I just thank you so much for your willingness to talk about it and to put it all in a book that people can get. Again, it's blue is the color of heaven and Dana, I gave out your Facebook but, again, if you're open to that, I think people should feel like they could reach out to you.
[00:27:45] Dori Durbin: So. Right.
[00:27:48] Dana Ziemniak: Thank you. Thank you again for giving me this opportunity to talk and share and share his story.
[00:27:55] Dori Durbin: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you.
[00:27:57] ATR2100x-USB Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-7: Thank you listeners for listening to [00:28:00] the entire podcast.
[00:28:01] ATR2100x-USB Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-7: I wanted to give you just a word of wisdom. If for some reason this podcast has raised a concern in your mind about your child or children's friends. Then this is an opportunity to take some action. Talk to other parents school counselors, or anyone else who, you know, and trust and find out more because your instincts are trustworthy and important as a parent. And. They can make all the difference in the world. Okay. We'll talk soon.