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Protecting Your Kids During Divorce: Expert Tips with Anna Krolikowska

• Dori Durbin • Season 2 • Episode 14

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Listen to today's episode, "Protecting Your Kids During Divorce: Expert Tips with Anna Krolikowska" as Divorce Attorney and Mediator, Anna Krolikowska  joins Dori Durbin.  Anna shares:

  • Why Anna Chose to Specialize in Divorce
  • Keeping Kid's First
  • Best Ways to Protect Your Kids
  • Reducing Divorce Stress on Kids
  • Divorce Challenges for Kids
  • Deciding Your Best Path
  • Showing Kids They Are Valuable
  • Mental Health Professionals Involvement
  • 2 Important Things Kids Should Know About Divorce
  • Where to Find Anna Krolikowska

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More about Anna:
Anna P. Krolikowska, a Northbrook Collaborative Divorce attorney, and Mediator focuses her practice in the area of family law. Anna realizes that importance and the impact family law matters have not only on her clients, but also on their families. From divorce and child custody to any judgment modifications, Ms. Krolikowska considers the unique circumstances of each case, to develop a course of action designed specifically to address each client’s unique needs. As a litigator, trained mediator and a collaborative professional, Anna is able to offer to her clients diverse, and creative approaches to resolving marital disputes.

Anna is highly respected  by her colleagues and has been honored as one of the Best Lawyers in America (2023),  “Top 50 Women Lawyers” (2021) and “40 Under 40” (2019 by the Chicago Daily Law, and an Illinois Super Lawyer in Family Law annually since 2019. Anna was elected and served as President of the Illinois State Bar Association, a voluntary professional organization of 30,000 Illinois attorneys from 2021 to 2022. She was only the 5th woman elected President of the ISBA since its inception in 1877.

Follow Anna:
https://www.annaklaw.com
https://facebook.com/AttyKrolikowska
https://linkedin.com/in/annakrolikowska
https://instagram.com/annaklawchicago
https://twitter.com/AnnaK_Law

email: anna@annaklaw.com

More about Dori Durbin:
Dori Durbin is a Christian wife, mom, author, illustrator, and a kids’ book coach who after experiencing a life-changing illness, quickly switched gears to follow her dream. She creates kids’ books to provide a fun and safe passageway for kids and parents to dig deeper and experience empowered lives. Dori also coaches non-fiction authors and aspiring authors to “kid-size” their content into informational and engaging kids’ books!
 
Buy Dori's Kids' Books:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Dori-Durbin/author/B087BFC2KZ

Follow Dori
http://instagram.com/dori_durbin
http://www.doridurbin.com
http://www.facebook.com/dori_durbin


[00:00:11.920] - Dori Durbin

Hello and welcome to The Power of Kids Books, where we believe books are a catalyst to inspire and empower change. Today's podcast is an expert edition and you know, on these podcasts, I love to discover what professionals would love for our kids to know about what they do. Today, we are speaking to a guest who is a divorce attorney and mediator and among many honors, she has been called one of the best lawyers in America and has been in the top 50 women's lawyers as well as 40 under 40 group. Her true hope is to help parents understand the impact of conflict on children, the options parents have, and how parents can help shelter their kids in a divorce situation. So, welcome. Anna Krolikowska.

 


[00:00:55.460] - Anna Krolikowska

Thank you for having me Dori thank you.

 


[00:00:58.090] - Dori Durbin

I am truly honored and excited because not only are you a lawyer, but you're an aspiring author, too.

 


[00:01:04.920] - Anna Krolikowska

Yes, and I have to admit you inspired me because we started talking about what we could share with parents so that they can help their kids if they're going through or contemplating the possibility of a divorce. And you asked me if I had a book, and at the time I didn't, but I thought about it and came up with an idea for an entire book series. So the first book is in the works and should be available soon.

 


[00:01:31.120] - Dori Durbin

That is so exciting. And I know your passion behind your mission and your mission will definitely serve many, many people. So you'll have to let us know. We'll have to announce it when it's out.

 


[00:01:42.100] - Anna Krolikowska

I absolutely will, and thank you so.

 


[00:01:44.820] - Dori Durbin

Oh, I'm just really giddy and excited, so thank you. So tell me a little bit, Anna, about how you actually fell upon or became an actual divorce lawyer out of all the other types of lawyers there are.

 


[00:01:59.320] - Anna Krolikowska

So that's a great question, and I had no plans on being a divorce attorney when I was in law school or even before law school. Initially, I thought about different ways of helping people, and then in law school, I took an advocacy class. And that type of a class has you basically appearing in court and arguing cases in front of judges, pretend cases in front of pretend judges, or judges who are volunteering their free time to help law students get better. But the idea is to hone your skills and become an advocate. So that was one of the courses that changed my future. The other one was about family law and it was taught jointly by an attorney and a mental health professional. And it was for both therapists and counselors and future lawyers. And those two experiences really showed me that I was passionate about helping families, especially helping kids, because the legal system is not always set up in a way that is best for them. And don't take me wrong, I have been an attorney for 17 years. I've litigated for a long time. I have been a mediator for, gosh, 14 years at this point.

 


[00:03:17.200] - Anna Krolikowska

And I fully understand that there are some situations where we do need a judge to hear the case and we do need a judge to decide. But in many other instances, unfortunately, the kids pay a price as their parents are going through the legal divorce process. Let's put it that way.

 


[00:03:39.000] - Dori Durbin

I was sharing with you earlier, I've never gone through that as a child, but as an adult, it was quite traumatic at different points. So I can't imagine that wouldn't be even more magnified as a kid.

 


[00:03:50.380] - Anna Krolikowska

Absolutely. And I'm often asked, or sometimes I volunteer this information, but I absolutely make no qualms about the fact that in my mind, the kids come first. So I will tell my clients that you absolutely need to make sure that you're doing what you can to protect them. And that can start with not exposing them to what's happening in the court system, not sharing the details of the divorce with them, figuring out how you will even tell them that there will be a divorce and what's happening, and reassuring them about the fact that their relationships with their parents will be positive going forward. And again, I understand there are extremes where you can't make those assurances or give those assurances. But if you can, it's really important for your kids to see that the parents still care for them, that they will work together, that they will put the kids first, and certainly that even though they might have grown apart and are divorcing for whatever reason right. And we want to keep those adult reasons between the parents, that you still at least view the other person as a co parent. And that is really important because kids understand, even at a very small age, young age, understand that they are part mommy and part daddy.

 


[00:05:25.650] - Anna Krolikowska

Right? And so when they hear or see negative interaction or hear negative things about the other parent, they often internalize it, thinking, well, I'm 50% mommy, I'm 50% daddy. Therefore whatever the bad thing is about this other parent, I have that too.

 


[00:05:46.340] - Dori Durbin

Do you find that a lot of the parents have a hard time not sharing the details? Maybe they feel like they need an ally and so it's that kid. And so that's part of the struggle with putting them in a bad spot.

 


[00:06:03.640] - Anna Krolikowska

It is absolutely a very difficult thing for a parent. I acknowledge that. I understand that. But that's why I'm also a big proponent of helping my clients connect with therapists and counselors and mental health professionals, people who can be a resource with whom they can talk about all of these difficult emotions and what's happening, but still keep the kids out of the process.

 


[00:06:33.840] - Dori Durbin

That makes a lot of sense. Now, I guess from the outside, it doesn't seem like there are a lot of choices as far as divorce settling and how you handle things in a divorce. You said, though, that there are a lot of options that parents could be using that maybe they don't. Could you talk a little bit about that?

 


[00:06:51.350] - Anna Krolikowska

I would be happy to. So the most common option that most people are familiar with, right, somebody files a case in the court system, and if you can agree, great. You write up a settlement agreement and it gets finalized. If you cannot agree, you go through a lengthy discovery process where you're exchanging financial information. You're possibly litigating about custody and parenting questions, and then eventually a judge decides. Most of us have heard that story. The two alternatives that have become available in the last 30 years or so are mediation and collaborative divorce. So in mediation, the parents agree to work with a neutral. That person's job is to help them have difficult conversations and come up with an agreement. If they're successful, then an attorney would write up the agreement and help them navigate the court system. But the terms of that agreement are arrived at through conversations and through conversations that allow these parents to come up with an agreement that works for their particular family.

 


[00:08:05.040] - Dori Durbin

Okay.

 


[00:08:05.630] - Anna Krolikowska

Collaborative divorce is similar to mediation. It actually grew out of mediation, but the process is structured a little bit differently. So each spouse hires an attorney who's trained in collaborative process, which also means that they have to be trained as a mediator first because that's our requirement for collaborative process work. And then we can bring in other professionals. So, for example, let's say that the parents are recognizing that there are parenting issues, but they're committed to working those out. Amicably we can bring in a mental health professional, and that person's job is to act as a child specialist so he or she will have mental health background and they will talk with the parents about what sort of a parenting schedule might work. And they're able to talk about different developmental needs, different ages, and really help the parents structure the agreement in a way that works for them. Once again, we have the comprehensive divorce settlement agreements. The attorneys are able to put those in writing and get the case finalized through the court system.

 


[00:09:20.100] - Dori Durbin

So really in all that then, a lot of that stress is reduced as far as trying to be in court because you're out of court to do that.

 


[00:09:28.470] - Anna Krolikowska

Correct. You are not in court in collaborative process until you have actually finalized your agreement. We have only one court date. We show up, we offer a little bit of testimony, we share the documents with the judge, the judge will review them, and the case is finalized that day.

 


[00:09:49.360] - Dori Durbin

Wow. Yeah, this sounds like a lot less stress in general.

 


[00:09:53.520] - Anna Krolikowska

Not only that. So in my collaborative cases I have had parents, for example, talk through with the child specialist and agree we're not telling the kids until such and such moment. And then when that moment comes, they're on. The same page as far as what they're saying, what the messages, what reassurances they will give to the kids. They are on the same page as far as where it will happen and all those little details. Because from my mental health colleagues, I have learned that, unfortunately, kids will remember that conversation forever. So in collaborative process, parents can be more intentional about what they want that memory to look like for their kids going forward.

 


[00:10:44.640] - Dori Durbin

Is that something that sometimes you would have a mental health advocate of some kind there in the conversation or is that not typical?

 


[00:10:53.800] - Anna Krolikowska

Some families have done it that way. Again, it depends on what the parents believe would be best for their particular family but yes, I've heard of that as well.

 


[00:11:03.080] - Dori Durbin

Yeah. So what in your opinion is the most challenging part that a kid has to face in the midst of all of this?

 


[00:11:15.500] - Anna Krolikowska

From mental health professionals we know that it's not necessarily that the parents are divorcing. That is the most difficult aspect for the kids. It's the level of discord and acrimony that has the most impact on kids long term. So trying to protect your kids from disagreements, fights, discord will truly help them in adjusting to the process. Of course there are other things you can do, right? You can arrange for counseling for your kids if appropriate. You can reach agreements regarding your divorce and your co parenting that aim to put the kids first in many different ways, however that shows up for your family and your children. But yes, there are things that you can do to help minimize the impact.

 


[00:12:14.720] - Dori Durbin

And is that some of the way that you would protect them or shelter them from having other negative effects of the divorce beyond the obvious, we can't.

 


[00:12:25.750] - Anna Krolikowska

Completely protect them, right? We cannot in any situation. As a parent, believe me, I get it, we want to protect them from anything and everything, right? Put them in a bubble if we can, but we can't do that because we can't even always anticipate all the problems that they might be facing in the future. But what we can do is minimize the impact of decisions that the adults are making and hopefully give them coping skills or resources or let them know that there are people and resources available who can help them if they come to us with problems or concerns or issues.

 


[00:13:04.780] - Dori Durbin

How do parents make a decision as far as which course of divorce they would choose? Again, I know it might depend on just the situation but are there factors that they should consider when making their decisions?

 


[00:13:18.660] - Anna Krolikowska

Yes. So a lot depends on how the parents are interacting with each other. So for example, if you have a situation where the parents are talking with a counselor and they arrive at the decision that they will divorce but they want to minimize the acrimony, they want to minimize the impact on the family. They might seriously look at collaborative process or mediation. Or you might have one of the parents find out about those two modalities and suggest them to their spouse. And the spouse might consider them and say, okay, let's try it. You can't really order someone to participate in collaborative process. You can order someone to participate in mediation, at least in Illinois, regarding children's issues. But the statute basically requires the parents to appear for two sessions of court ordered mediation. I personally, always as an attorney, encourage the parents to do their best and to see if they can reach agreements on even some of the issues, because realistically, that lessens the number of issues you might have to litigate. But unfortunately, that's not always the approach you for other professionals or for some clients. And then of course, you have the litigated approach where maybe you have requested or suggested collaborative process or mediation and your spouse said no.

 


[00:14:58.290] - Anna Krolikowska

Or maybe it's not a realistic possibility because for whatever reason, they will not engage any process other than a litigated.

 


[00:15:07.520] - Dori Durbin

Process that makes sense. Yeah, I never thought about all of those options in that way either, depending on how cooperative the spouse was or the situation. I always think that divorce is so much more complicated than what people think when they first go into it. They're at like a point of either frustration or just not being able to make things work out and then think, okay, well, this is going to be easier, quicker, better. And I know that probably even you can tell us even more. It's not necessarily the case for most divorces.

 


[00:15:43.140] - Anna Krolikowska

It's not. And even with couples who are getting along well for the most part, there is always going to be something that's going to come up during this process. Because realistically, if there wasn't, you wouldn't be getting divorced. So yes, you can pick a great process for you and your family, but anticipate that there will be setbacks and there will be difficult moments. And it's really important for you to be working with the right professionals for you, for your family, for your situation, for your process. Because the attorney who worked with your cousin five years ago might not be the best attorney for you. So the best piece of advice I can give you is do your research as a parent who's contemplating divorce. Interview attorneys, find the right person and process for you so you feel like they understand what's important to you and they will help you to pursue it.

 


[00:16:45.780] - Dori Durbin

That's great advice. Back to the kids just for a second. So if all this is happening to parents and the kids were trying our best to keep the kids safe and to keep their best interest in mind, keep them out of court, they still know something's going on. They still know that there's discord, that somebody's not at the house, whatever the situation is how do we help the kids so that they still see themselves as important and cared about, but not part of that discord?

 


[00:17:22.560] - Anna Krolikowska

So that's a great question, and I have a twofold answer. The first one would be, again, the power of, if possible, parents having these conversations and being on the same page as far as what to tell and how to tell and what that process looks like. Because in my cases, the parents don't necessarily move out right away. We might be wrapping up the divorce case by the time the kids find out that there's something going on. And I give these parents a lot of credit because they are making choices and sacrifices to help their kids have a better adjustment period. They're also working with mental health professionals to figure out how best to help the kids adjust to this. And then once you do get to the point where someone will be moving out, right, there will be an adjustment period. As far as two houses living in two houses having a parenting schedule, what does that look like? And again, the beauty of collaborative process and mediation is that we can often try out different parenting schedules before we say, this is it. This is the final one, and that's the one we want to document and have entered by the judge as the parenting schedule.

 


[00:18:43.730] - Anna Krolikowska

Because at least in Illinois, you need to have a written agreement, a judgment that details what the parenting schedule will look like, and there is a call for some specificity. So we might say, unless the parents agree otherwise, this is what an average week looks like, this is what a weekend looks like, this is what the summer break will look like. And yes, it's specifically tailored to a family. But you want to give the judge enough information, and the concern is the judge wants to see that information in a judgment, because if something happens three, five, six years down the road and there is litigation on this issue, the judge wants to see what was the default plan, what was supposed to happen?

 


[00:19:34.620] - Dori Durbin

Got you. And then they probably use that to make the decisions for future plans.

 


[00:19:39.650] - Anna Krolikowska

Exactly.

 


[00:19:42.380] - Dori Durbin

Now, you said with the mental health professionals, do those get assigned at the point of divorce? Do you have to find your own? How does that work?

 


[00:19:50.100] - Anna Krolikowska

Oh, that's another great question. Unfortunately, as far as I know, our court system is not set up in a way where when a case is filed, there's a referral to a mental health professional. Yes, there might be referrals in litigated cases, but that's on a case by case basis, and it's very specific. So, for example, let's say we have a situation where there's a contentious custody battle and there are concerns about the children, and maybe Mom's attorney is filing a petition for appointment of a therapist for the kids or a guardian for the kids. Well, the judge is going to pick a specific person and that person will be named in a court order. And that court order will detail what this person is supposed to do. So they might be a therapist for the kids, they might be a guardian for the kids, and a guardian's job is to look out for the kids, conduct interviews, report to the judge as far as what they would suggest would be best for the kids in this particular situation. Or you might have a parenting coordinator who's appointed, whose job it is to frankly help the parents have difficult conversations about coparenting.

 


[00:21:05.880] - Anna Krolikowska

If you're going through a mediation or collaborative process, it's usually professionals like myself, your attorney, or your mediator who will say, hey, if you're looking for referrals to a child therapist, here are a couple of people who have worked with my clients in the past who have worked with children of similar age rather well. Would you like to interview them and see if any of them would be a good fit?

 


[00:21:34.000] - Dori Durbin

Interesting, that's what I wondered if it was something that it'd be nice if they were just automatically brought into this situation, but it'd be really difficult to do that as well.

 


[00:21:45.460] - Anna Krolikowska

Yes, it would be both difficult logistics wise, it would be expensive. And also the domestic relations court system is really overwhelmed and overburdened, especially during the last few years, because COVID had an interesting impact on everything. Right. But specifically as it relates to divorce and family law. We were shut down with the court system for at least three months and then they brought us back, fortunately via Zoom, which was great. That was very much needed because realistically, people could not just wait to hear what would happen regarding custody or parenting time or child support or financial issues. And yes, those of us who work in collaborative process and mediation were able to work with our clients during those months where the courts were shut down and continued to work. But we both recognize that there are some cases where you will want or need a judge to make that final decision.

 


[00:22:50.520] - Dori Durbin

And then you said a mediator, are they only involved in the collaborations or mediation process and not at any other level?

 


[00:22:59.500] - Anna Krolikowska

So there's different types of mediators. So for example, if I'm hired as a mediator to help a couple privately, we're going to work on all aspects of the case. So it will involve custody, which is the decision making aspect of parenting, the parenting time, the financials, the support debts. And once we have a comprehensive agreement listing that in writing, if you're going through a litigated court process, at least in Illinois, our statute requires that if the parents cannot agree on custody and parenting time specifically, then the judge can order them to participate in court ordered mediation. And those mediators are actually employees of the court system and they're available at the courthouse and the parents would have to show up for two sessions, usually with a mediator, and that mediator's focus will be on the parenting piece.

 


[00:24:03.840] - Dori Durbin

Interesting. So there's so many levels, so many different levels to this. Okay, if you were going to kind of condense the whole process of divorce, talking to your kids, talking to your spouse, let's say I limit you to two really good pieces of advice to deliver to your kids. What would be the two things that you would say that kids should know about that? And I'm going to ask you the same question about marriage and family.

 


[00:24:34.540] - Anna Krolikowska

Sure. So for the kids, I would say, mommy and Daddy love you and life will look a little bit different, but we will be there for you and take care of you and you are safe. So that would be the advice for what I would suggest the parents tell their kids if they're going through that process. And of course that's aimed at younger kids, right. When you have a 13 year old or a 14 year old, the conversation might be a little bit different, but we want to make sure we're being age appropriate. As far as parents, my advice would be if you can put your kids first and that recognizes the reality that sometimes that might not be possible because of what's happening in the family. So putting your kids first might look very different if you can have a collaborative divorce or a mediated divorce versus if maybe there is domestic violence or other concerns and you will need a judge to decide. But whatever happens, put your kids first in whatever way that looks in your current situation. Take care of yourself as you're going through this process. It's a marathon, it's not a sprint.

 


[00:25:53.780] - Anna Krolikowska

And make sure you find the right people and resources to help you.

 


[00:25:59.380] - Dori Durbin

That sounds like great advice. Tough, but great advice.

 


[00:26:03.320] - Anna Krolikowska

Yeah, I hope it helps.

 


[00:26:06.030] - Dori Durbin

Oh, I definitely think so. If they do have questions, Anna, where is a good spot for them to reach out to you?

 


[00:26:13.580] - Anna Krolikowska

Thanks for asking. You can find me at www dot anna. Anna Klaw.com. That's my website. Or you can find me on Facebook at Attorney Kralakoska, although the website probably is easier. Anna Klaw.com. Or you can call me at 847-715-9328. 847-715-9328.

 


[00:26:40.720] - Dori Durbin

That is amazing. Well, thank you so much for your heart. I can't wait for you to tell us your book is out and I hope people will feel free to just reach out and contact you.

 


[00:26:51.020] - Anna Krolikowska

Thank you so much for having me and for allowing me to share this important information. I hope it's helpful to your listeners.

 


[00:26:58.130] - Dori Durbin

I think it will be, Anna. Thank you.

 

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