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From Legal Briefs to Children's Books: A Quest to Represent with Tiffany Obeng

• Dori Durbin • Season 2 • Episode 10

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Listen to today's episode,  "From Legal Briefs to Children's Books: A Quest to Represent with Tiffany Obeng" as Attorney by trade, mama, and Children's Book Author, Tiffany Obeng  joins Dori Durbin. Tiffany shares:

  • From Lawyer to Kids' Books
  • Underrepresented Groups in Books
  • New Themes for Kids' Books
  • Tiffany's Creative Inspiration
  • Reading of "Andrew Learns About Lawyers"
  • Different Books, Different Illustrators
  • Favorite Things About Being an Author
  • Where to Find Tiffany & Her Books

Did you love this episode? Discover more here:
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More about Tiffany:
Tiffany is a lawyer and author of several educational and inspiring children's picture books. Tiffany creates books featuring Black children and families in spaces where they have historically been absent. Her books also feature Black child characters in normal everyday situations. In this way, all children are normalized, humanized, and the world can be made a safer place for them. Her books include popular kids' career books Andrew Learns about Lawyers and Andrew Learns about Engineers; season book Spencer Knows Spring and honesty book Scout's Honor. To learn more about Tiffany and her books, you can visit her website: www.SugarCookieBooks.com.

Find Tiffany's Book:
http://www.sugarcookiebooks.com/shop

Follow Tiffany:
http://www.sugarcookiebooks.com
http://www.Facebook.com/sugarcookiebooks
http://www.instagram.com/sugarcookiebooks
http://www.pinterest.com/sugarcookiebooks
http://www.teacherspayteachers.com/store/sugar-cookie-books

Email: sugarcookiebooks@gmail.com

More about Dori Durbin:
Dori Durbin is a Christian wife, mom, author, illustrator, and a kids’ book coach who after experiencing a life-changing illness, quickly switched gears to follow her dream. She creates kids’ books to provide a fun and safe passageway for kids and parents to dig deeper and experience empowered lives. Dori also coaches non-fiction authors and aspiring authors to “kid-size” their content into informational and engaging kids’ books!
 
Buy Dori's Kids' Books:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Dori-Durbin/author/B087BFC2KZ

Follow Dori
http://instagram.com/dori_durbin
http://www.doridurbin.com
http://www.facebook.com/dori_durbin

[00:00:01.610] - Dori Durbin

Hello, and welcome to The Power of Kids Books, where we believe books are a catalyst to inspire and empower change. I'm your host, Dori Durbin. When you look for kids books, are you ever disappointed by the lack of your own kids ethnicity being represented? Well, this multichildren's book author noticed a hole in children's literature and characters as well and put her observations to work. She created a series called Sugar Cookie Books that utilizes black characters in her books in everyday situations and then some. Welcome Tiffany obing.

 


[00:00:36.130] - Tiffany Obeng

Thank you so much for having me.

 


[00:00:37.530] - Dori Durbin

It's so good to have you on.

 


[00:00:39.640] - Tiffany Obeng

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

 


[00:00:42.200] - Dori Durbin

We were chatting a little before the podcast started, and Tiffany is still an attorney by trade, she calls herself. And I thought that was just fascinating to go from being an attorney to actually being a kids book author. So do you want to give us a little hint as to how that happened?

 


[00:00:59.300] - Tiffany Obeng

Yeah, so I do find that interesting as well. And I remember when I first decided to embark on a journey of becoming an author, and my brother would say something about being creative, and I'm like, I am not creative. He's like you're an author. What are you talking about? I was like, oh, yeah. As I've come to realize, and I've told children when I go to career days and things like that, lawyer and author do have similar skills. So, for example, as a lawyer, you do a lot of reading or researching. You do a lot of writing, you do a lot of talking to people, explaining to people, be it in written communication or written form, for example, just two examples. And then as an author, you do a lot of reading, you do a lot of research, and you do a lot of writing and communicating people in written form. So I've always been good at writing. Not trying to, toot, but people have said, like, you're really good at writing, and I am really good at having a lot of information and being able to synthesize it and explain it in a way that different groups of people can understand.

 


[00:02:08.890] - Tiffany Obeng

And so those skills have been very helpful in drafting or creating my children's books, particularly the nonfiction books, such as the Career Books for Kids or the autobiography or biography I just did of Maya Angelou. So just being able to use my lawyer skills to be the best author I can be, I think that's great.

 


[00:02:32.670] - Dori Durbin

That's great that you can explain that to the kids, too, to see that the similarities between the jobs, because I think it's easy for them to get kind of pigeonholed into, I'm really good at this, so obviously I'm just going to do this one thing. And you're showing a multifaceted version of being a kid's book author and an attorney as well.

 


[00:02:52.950] - Tiffany Obeng

Yeah. And so what's really fun is that I like to call myself, or I'm starting to call myself the Career Book Lady. And the message is, you can be anything you want to be. So all of the career books end with that message. You could be anything you want to be. Any paraphernalia I have, or a lot of them, is like, I could be anything I want to be, or you could be anything you want to be. And so what I was telling the kids, or what I tell the kids are, is you can be anything you want to be, and you could be multiple things. You don't have to just be one thing, because for so long, we thought we only had to be one thing. As I was telling dory offline when I was very young, said I was going to be a lawyer and an author, but I pursued being a lawyer and put authors to the back burner until more recently. But what if we knew at the time that we didn't have to just do one thing? We can actually focus on different things or understood how both fields kind of overlap, if you will.

 


[00:03:50.410] - Dori Durbin

Yeah. It just opens the doors to possibility, really. You don't have to be so specialized that you can't enjoy multiple things.

 


[00:03:57.550] - Tiffany Obeng

That's right.

 


[00:03:58.680] - Dori Durbin

Yeah. I love that. And I love that you are representing in the area, having black children as characters and noticing that there was that hole there, and instead of being like, mad about it and just sitting on it, you did something and 20 somethings, right?

 


[00:04:16.610] - Tiffany Obeng

That's right. I like to tell people that I did not get into the industry to change it, but I stayed in the industry to change it. So my story of getting into the industry was more of a bucket list item. I was just going to do one book, perhaps maybe four, over a period of time, and I would be content. But after I published my second book and saw statistics about how books, diverse books, are needed, especially when it comes to black child characters, I was like, I could do something and I will do something. And so that is what started me on the journey of making an impact in the industry. And I've had peers say, like, if you continue like this, you're going to single handedly change the industry. And that is frightening. Which reminds me of a quote that I often quote, which is, our fear is not that we're inadequate. Our fear is that we're powerful beyond measure. By Miriam Williamson. And so I'm like, wow. When she says things like that, or people say things like that, I'm just like me, this little tiny speck in the world could actually make such a ripple effect.

 


[00:05:33.160] - Tiffany Obeng

So it's exciting. I like what I'm doing. People believe in it, believe in my message, believe in my mission. I have said, or I hope, that when Andrew learns about lawyers, andrew learns about engineers, andrew learns about scientists. That not only will it expose children to careers early on, so they can kind of start thinking about their options, but hopefully it'll have the long term effect of diversifying workplaces, such as the legal field, such as the engineering field, such as the scientist field. And so I'm really excited about that. Of course, it'll probably be 20 plus years before I can see a kid say, I'm here because of this book.

 


[00:06:13.190] - Dori Durbin

That's a possibility for sure. The really cool thing is that you're not saying, okay, just because I am an attorney, it has to be only that actually, with all the development of the careers, there's new careers all over the place. And so you have the potential to write many, many more books.

 


[00:06:34.420] - Tiffany Obeng

Tiffany yes, and I plan to.

 


[00:06:40.190] - Dori Durbin

They're not just on career either. I think that's what's fascinating. Career is just one branch of your series, right?

 


[00:06:48.040] - Tiffany Obeng

Yeah. So the career books books are one branch and they usually come out probably about six to eight months after each other. And I do plan to become the Britannica career book for kids. So I have a long way to go.

 


[00:07:02.310] - Dori Durbin

That is awesome.

 


[00:07:03.300] - Tiffany Obeng

But the other branches that I have are seasons books. So I realized that when it comes to seasons books, there are not a lot of diverse books about seasons. So that's where the third part of my mission kind of comes in of normalizing. Like just see a black kid doing kid things. So we have the seasons books where the kids are just talking about the season and why it's the best season ever. All my books are educational, so it's going to have facts about the seasons because I just can't help myself. But so I have those and then I have self love books for kids. And so that's of course, to just encourage them to accept themselves however they are and also have a message to adults about some things that my community, for example, have ideas about needs to change. And so I'm hoping with my literature, particularly in the Self Love book, will help navigate that change in my community or other communities that experience some of the things that I'm referencing with those self love books. Then I have basic concept books. So let's teach our kids about their body parts and senses.

 


[00:08:15.960] - Tiffany Obeng

So I have those and I have social emotional learning books. So we talk about honesty and why it's important. And we have trying to think there's so many, right? Talk about honesty. I have a lot of books and sometimes I forget, I think, well, we.

 


[00:08:37.860] - Dori Durbin

Were talking before 20 of them. Well, by the time these next two come out, there'll be 20. Yeah. You're definitely encompassing a very big piece of the kids lives and empowering them, really. I mean, you think about careers, social, emotional information about themselves, their feelings, that's huge. Just one of those books can make an impact. And you've got basically four different areas, I think maybe five, that really can penetrate into their lives. That's impressive.

 


[00:09:14.850] - Tiffany Obeng

Thank you.

 


[00:09:17.010] - Dori Durbin

So have you been able to see the effects of any of your books?

 


[00:09:20.840] - Tiffany Obeng

So it's hilarious because I just had an event last night that I was invited to, and this guy an older white guy, okay. And I think this is important for the story. He's an older white guy, and he came up and he was looking at my book, and he zeroed in on black Boy Hair Joy. So black Boy hair, Joy, is what it insinuates or implies. It's a hair love book for black boys. And so he's like, oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh. He's so excited about this book. He's like, I have to show you my grandson. So he pulls up a picture of his grandson, and his grandson has the same almost look like the character on the front of the COVID He's like, I have to get this. Oh, my gosh, he's going to be so excited. So we have a conversation. He's super excited, buys it and some other books, walks away, comes back a little later. He's like, can you sign it? I'm like, of course. Let's take a picture so your grandson can see it. So we do that. He walks away. He comes back at the end of the event, and he's like, I just want to thank you so much for your work that you're doing.

 


[00:10:25.780] - Tiffany Obeng

This means a lot. I know. And I was like, are you trying to make me cry? I've had another experience with Black War here Joy, where a black kid who's probably about nine years old didn't like to read my books. And I was at a library festival selling my books, obviously, and his mother walked by with him and stopped him talking to them. She was like, he doesn't like to read. He doesn't like books. I was like, how can you sell an author that? No. So I picked a black boy hair. Joy started flipping through it, asking him questions about the hairstyles. Like, you got friends who have this hair. Look at your hair here. And they left or whatever. And she's like, yeah, he just doesn't like books. But he left. But if he came back, he was like, how much is that book? I was like, oh, really? So I told him. He ran off, and he came back with mom, and she was like, he wants the book. And we were like, yeah. So know, taking kids from not wanting to read, wanting to read, at least that book has been amazing.

 


[00:11:22.140] - Dori Durbin

And that's so rewarding. We can laugh about it, but it's so rewarding as an author to see a kid pick up your book and be so excited and to have the adult actually see value in your book even though the kid's not there, is amazing as well.

 


[00:11:37.660] - Tiffany Obeng

Yeah, that's just a couple of ways.

 


[00:11:43.490] - Dori Durbin

That see your books are they surprised to see themselves in your books?

 


[00:11:50.130] - Tiffany Obeng

I know I keep talking about black boy Hair Joy, but with the black boy Hair Joy, that is the one where they're like, that's me right there. And I'm like, yes it is, kid. So yeah, that's probably the one where the black boys are immediately like, me. Like, good, that's exactly what I created it for. Now, with the other books, their parents might be like, oh, my gosh, my son's name is Andrew or My husband's name is Andrew, or I'm a lawyer, so I'm going to get this for my kids so they can understand what I do. And I'm like, that's exactly right. Or My kid is into Stem, so I'm going to get the engineering book. Or my kid likes dinosaurs. I'm going to get the scientist book because the scientist book focuses a lot on dinosaurs. It's like the intro or whatever because my son loves dinosaurs. And that's kind of how it came about. He was playing with a dinosaur fossil kit. And so that kind of like, created the story for scientists. So the parents will say, this is going to be great. This is what my kid looks like. Or this is what my kid I can explain this to my kid with this book.

 


[00:12:55.590] - Dori Durbin

That's awesome. I was going to ask you a little bit about your inspiration. How you get 20 different stories going in your mind?

 


[00:13:03.770] - Tiffany Obeng

No, they come from my son, mainly. So it's interesting to see where we're going to go because as he gets older, different things are going to come up. So, for example, the career book, the acting one I told you guys about, teachers came from my mom and my husband and other educators. Just the State of the Union Lawyers was inspired by me. Andrew Learns About Engineers was inspired by my cousin and best friend who are engineers. But of course, the storyline or how we get started is inspired by Andrew. Like, literally taken from something with Andrew. So I was like, thank you so much. Because I had writer's block with engineers, I couldn't figure out an intro for it, what was going to drive the story so we could start talking about engineers and what they do and why they're important. And then one day came home with the theme, and I was like, yes, this is it, andrew scientists came for my son. And then the self love book. Blackboard hair. Joy. My son was being teased one time at camp or maybe a couple of times at camp. It was a silly tease, but it was about his hair.

 


[00:14:08.530] - Tiffany Obeng

And so I was like, we don't have hair love books for black boys, or at least not a lot of them. So I will make one. My Summer Skin is Radiant was inspired by my son as well. Well, worried about me and my mom, I guess. Reaction to my son getting darker during the summer. And, like I kind of hinted to, in some communities, getting darker is not seen as a good theme. And so I was like, Why? That's dumb. I wanted to set out to change that idea. The Lion Book Scouts Honor was inspired by my son, Two Houses Down, which is a story about divorce and friendship or changing families and changing friendships was actually inspired by me and my best friend. So I like to say that's a great combination of Evelyn del Rey is moving away and Why do families change? Mixed into one and makes a really heartwarming story. It's written from the perspective of the friend who's being left behind, not the friends whose parents getting a divorce. So it makes it possible for you or anyone to talk to your kids about divorce in general, any questions they may have.

 


[00:15:14.080] - Tiffany Obeng

So just briefly, because I really like the story, the main character wakes up on a Saturday. Per usual, she wants to go show her best friend her new coloring book so it can color. But when she gets to her friend's house, she learns that her friend is moving away because her parents are getting divorced. Of course, she's never heard that term before. So she goes home sad, and she asks her mom, like, what does divorce mean? So her mom explains to her what it means, and then, of course, she asks the next hard question will we still be friends? And so they talk about that. That was inspired by, like I said, my childhood. And when my parents got divorced and I moved away from my friend who stayed two houses down. But I'm wondering, what questions did she have when she realized I wasn't there anymore? And so I do have a book that's inspired by my daughter because people are like, well, what about your daughter that is inspired by her is I have Tintoes, Thank You, Jesus. And that came about because when she was an infant for a newborn, I'll get her dressed and I'll put the shirt over her head and be like, I have one head.

 


[00:16:18.710] - Tiffany Obeng

I have two arms. And then it just kind of evolved with thank You, Jesus, or what does this does? Like, I have one head. My head thinks, thank you, Jesus. So that's how that came about. And it's so sweet to read that with her. And I like to say that she learned her body parts and senses because of me. I can go on and on, but I think that it's 20 books.

 


[00:16:44.050] - Dori Durbin

I love that they're inspired by your kids because I do feel like when your kids have a part in the story, whether it's them specifically or they just contribute to it, there's even more joy to writing that story and especially sharing the story. And I know my two are older kids, and when I devised my theme and my series, they were part of it, but I didn't tell them until later. And now I think they think it's kind of funny. I don't think they've figured out who is who in the stories, and I'm not ever going to share that. But I will say that it's easier to write from what you know and what you're experiencing and what your kids really maybe struggle with or what they have experienced in their own lives. And even, like, with your story of going back to childhood and being able to kind of relive some of those feelings that you had, there's probably a little bit of a healing process to that, too, don't you think?

 


[00:17:47.700] - Tiffany Obeng

Is it healing? I don't know if I ever thought about the healing part of it, but I guess it could be. I know when I first wrote it, my mom read it, and she immediately was like, wrote this about you in Cabandra. That was my first day. Oh, you know, she's like, yes. She's like, you do know that you all saw each other a few times? And I was like, oh, yeah, we did. So they kind of, like, sparked some memories of how we had reconnected a couple of times. So I did put that in the book, like, at the very end. This is inspired by me and my childhood, but me and my friend did reconnect over, even though ultimately not in contact anymore. But I still think about her, obviously. But I don't know. I hadn't thought about it.

 


[00:18:32.290] - Dori Durbin

I think over time, it'd be interesting to see if you start to respond personally to it differently. But what's great is that you're helping other people work through things, too, because you know that that's an issue and a concern for kids all over the place, for sure. Hey, can we have you read your book, andrew Learns About Lawyers? Like 30 seconds worth of It? Because I'm sure people would love to hear it.

 


[00:18:56.250] - Tiffany Obeng

Sure you can. So Andrew learns about lawyers. By Tiffany Obam illustrated by IRA Bay Koska So it reads, on the fourth Thursday in April, andrew woke with his clock alarmed. He threw back the covers, left from bed, and ran straight into Mama's arms. Today was Take Your Child to Work day and Andrew could not wait. He was going to work with Mama. He knew it would be great. But then Andrew hung his head, and Mama asked, hey, what's wrong with you? Andrew said, It just occurred to me that I don't know what you do. Mama chuckled. Oh, that's all? And she said, well, that's easy. Then she said, I am a lawyer, also known as an attorney. You know how we always stop our car at a red traffic light? Or how we know that taking from others is something that's not right? Well, we know this because they are laws, and they tell us what to do. You can think of laws as society set of rules. And you know how I explained to you the rules of a new game. Lawyers explain the laws to people. It's a little bit the same.

 


[00:20:02.510] - Dori Durbin

That's awesome. I love that fact. You are giving them facts about being a lawyer without being so heavy.

 


[00:20:10.070] - Tiffany Obeng

Yeah. And that's what I think. One of my skills or what made me successful, quote unquote successful in this space is because I am able to talk about a subject that's kind of complex, such as lawyers, engineer, scientists, provide a lot of information, but provide it quickly and in a digestible way for kids four to nine to comprehend and understand and stay interested. So with the lawyers book, if we were to continue on, or she continues talking about what lawyers do, what lawyers may do, she talks about some of the different types of lawyers, which I thought was really important for me, because I did not meet a lawyer until I was in 11th grade. So that was way too late. And from what I saw on TV, they were always criminal lawyers because that makes for drama. So I didn't know or realize there were so many different types of law you could do. So I wanted to make sure that I was able to showcase a few different law areas for the parent and for the child, because I don't know if a lot of parents know that as well. And then talk about alternative legal careers, if you will, because, like I say, I'm an attorney by trade because I'm not practicing.

 


[00:21:23.670] - Tiffany Obeng

And people always think you have to go to court, you'd have to practice, but there's other things you can do with your law degree. So I wanted to make sure to highlight that as well.

 


[00:21:30.250] - Dori Durbin

I'm assuming probably most of your books are like this, like the same kind.

 


[00:21:33.490] - Tiffany Obeng

Of pattern for the career books. They all rhyme and they have the same type of pattern.

 


[00:21:39.400] - Dori Durbin

Yeah, I love that. And rhyming books are usually really well received by kids, especially younger kids. So you're really reaching into that heart of like, it's a fun book to read. I'm getting information and the parents are kind of sliding it in without overwhelmed.

 


[00:21:55.660] - Tiffany Obeng

Yeah, and I love when a parent so, for instance, with the Scientist book, andrew writes about scientists. Hello? When a parent is like, I didn't even know that a paleontologist existed. Like, how do you even say that? So it's like, hilarious.

 


[00:22:08.310] - Dori Durbin

Did you have to include pronunciation keys?

 


[00:22:12.570] - Tiffany Obeng

I do. In engineering, in lawyers, and in scientists, I have pronunciation. But you know what? I just got deemed in the UK because someone in the UK bought the book and they were like, this is a great book, but the pronunciations are in US. English. And I'm like, yeah. So that was just interesting because I'm thinking I'm doing something that's helpful, which many people thought it was. She's like, oh, in the UK, we don't talk like this.

 


[00:22:37.730] - Dori Durbin

I wouldn't have worried about it either, honestly. If you do that, you're going to hit all the other countries in the way that they pronounce. Yeah, it's one of those you just kind of have to do it your own way, right? Yeah. That's funny. So have you picked any topics that would be particularly challenging that you haven't written about yet that have come up in your mind?

 


[00:23:00.490] - Tiffany Obeng

That's a good question. I do have a manuscript that I float around when there's a call for manuscripts, sometimes you're in groups or something, they're like, hey, agents are looking for manuscripts, and this is the type we're looking for. So I'll float it around to see what happens. Like one of those. But it's intended to be a limited text picture book about a traffic stop that happens post 2020 in America. The black family has the potential to be heavy, depending, but it also has the potential to be very enlightening. So yeah, that's one of those. Like, if it happens, it happens, and it doesn't it does it, but it's not what I'm going to self publish because I don't feel like I have the tools to do it correctly in the best way possible.

 


[00:23:55.930] - Dori Durbin

I thought it was interesting, too, that you had different illustrators for your books.

 


[00:24:00.340] - Tiffany Obeng

Yeah. And if you're going to publish as many books as I did in a short period of time, it's almost a must that you have multiple illustrators to work with because illustrators are unavailable. Or maybe you want a different price point. For me, I like it because I get to experiment with different types of illustrations. So I could do watercolor and say, how do I feel about that? What does that look like? I could do comic, say, what do I feel about that? I could do, like, the crayon look and say, who, that's fun. I could do the seasons. Book illustrator use, like, a paint technique or something. So, yeah, I get to try all these different illustrations, how to bring my stories to life and see which ones I like. My black boy hairjoy illustrator, he's so good with character design. Oh, my gosh, he's phenomenal. He's amazing. And so I had to get back with him. When I did my other two that's about to come out, I was like, I have to use you again. And my characters don't look alike because he's so good with character design. But I don't want all 20 books to look alike because it becomes, like, monotonous.

 


[00:25:06.890] - Tiffany Obeng

Like, okay, I don't even know what book I'm holding at this point.

 


[00:25:09.590] - Dori Durbin

No, that's fabulous. I think probably the people who are following you, too, is to be curious to see what you did next.

 


[00:25:16.310] - Tiffany Obeng

I would love them to follow and be on the ends of their seats waiting for me to put out something else great.

 


[00:25:24.060] - Dori Durbin

I really do. So let me ask you this. What is your favorite thing about writing kids books so far?

 


[00:25:30.640] - Tiffany Obeng

That's a good one. My favorite thing is I'm going to say something cliche and cheesy. I think my favorite thing about writing kids books so far is being able to do it with my son. He's not a co author because I know a lot of people are like, oh, I wrote this with my child. He's not a co author, but one, he inspires a number of them. Two, when I'm going through the phase of illustrations, he's like my editor and beta reader or whatever. He's like, that doesn't make sense, or, that's not true. Especially when Andrew learns about sciences. I had to say, what type of dinosaur is this that my illustrator grew? And he's like, It's not a dinosaur. That's not real. So I need to make sure the dinosaurs were accurate and represented just in case science is going to the hands of another paleontologist future paleontologist. They weren't like, Why do you have fake dinosaurs in here? So he is that guy. I remember when I had Andrew Learns about teachers, my words that said something about he picked up his lunch kit and his backpack from the floor and hit it out the door, and the illustrator just had the backpack.

 


[00:26:41.210] - Tiffany Obeng

And so Andrew was like, Where's the lunch kit? And I was like, okay, let's go get the lunch kit. So he's that guy, and then he just the hype man once the book is complete, and I pull it out the box, and he's like, oh, my God, that's your book?

 


[00:26:57.270] - Dori Durbin

That's awesome. How come I'm not in this? Where are my favorite animals, mom? Exactly. Oh, that's too fun. Last question. Where can people find your books and get more information about you?

 


[00:27:09.610] - Tiffany Obeng

Sure. So the publishing imprint is Sugarcookiebooks, so my website is Sugarcookiebooks.com. My Instagram Facebook pinterest handle is at sugarcookiebooks. I'm also on Teachers pay Teachers and the store is Sugarcookie Books.

 


[00:27:27.990] - Dori Durbin

Well, Tiffany, I love what you're doing. I wish you the best, and I am excited for people to find any single one of your 20 books, and I hope that they will just reach out and let you know what they think as well.

 


[00:27:40.880] - Tiffany Obeng

Yeah. Thank you so much.

 


[00:27:42.930] - Dori Durbin

Thank you for your time today. I appreciate it.

 

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